Can We Be Moral Without Religion?

In this episode of "Leaving the Church to Find God," Melissa delves into the provocative topic of morality without religion. Melissa addresses the common belief that morality is inherently tied to organized religion, a notion challenged by historical evidence and philosophical thought. She begins by exploring ancient codes of conduct, such as the Code of Hammurabi and the concept of Ma'at in ancient Egypt, demonstrating that moral frameworks existed long before the advent of Christianity and other monotheistic religions.

Melissa discusses how morality has always been a part of human evolution, a necessary component for survival and social cohesion. She draws parallels to the natural world, where species like trees, bees, and wolves demonstrate intrinsic cooperation and mutual support without any religious influence.

Philosophical perspectives are also explored, with Melissa introducing the ideas of Immanuel Kant, who argued that morality is based on rationality and autonomy, and Jean-Jacques Rousseau, who believed humans are inherently good but corrupted by society. These viewpoints further support the argument that moral behavior does not require religious underpinnings.

Melissa highlights modern secular societies, such as those in Scandinavia, which rank high in happiness and social welfare, as living proof that a community can thrive morally and justly without religious dogma. She critiques how organized religion, through fear and coercion, often hinders genuine moral development and fosters division rather than unity.

The episode encourages listeners to embrace their innate moral compass through education, personal reflection, and community engagement. Melissa advocates for a return to mindfulness and self-awareness, fostering empathy and compassion by understanding and participating in the lives of others.

Melissa concludes by reinforcing the idea that morality belongs to humanity as a whole, independent of religious frameworks. She invites her audience to focus on commonalities, lift each other up, and embody the cooperative spirit seen in nature. This episode is a powerful call to reclaim personal and communal morality, fostering a more connected and compassionate society.

Tune in next week for an interview with a therapist discussing religious trauma and the Catholic Church. Stay authentic!

Transcript

1:15

(Transcribed by TurboScribe.ai. Go Unlimited to remove this message.) Aloha God Potters, welcome back. So today, I'm going to dive into a topic that has actually been on my mind for a little while. Pretty much since I've started this podcast, I can't even tell you how many people have come to me with the idea, even people who aren't churchgoing people, which I find really interesting, but with this idea or this belief that morality wouldn't exist if we didn't have churches. So, like I do, I'm going to dive deep into it and, um, yeah, let's get to the other side of this journey. Okay, so long before organized religions like Christianity or Islam, ancient civilizations had their own codes of conduct. There was one, for instance, it's called the Code of Hammurabi. It was a set of laws in ancient Mesopotamia. This was like 1654 BC, so it was far, far before Christ or Christianity, right? And it was all about justice and fairness. There was no tie whatsoever to monotheistic religion. So the Code of Hammurabi included laws like eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth, which, yes, are harsh. But by today's standards, you know, we have a different context to look at these things in, but then it was like an early attempt to create some sort of structured and fair society. They addressed issues like theft, debt, family relationships, which shows us that even in these times, we had a complex understanding of social order and justice. Also, in ancient Egypt, they had what was called mat. Mat was about truth, balance, order, harmony, law, morality, and justice. Again, it wasn't about pleasing a deity. It was about creating a harmonious society. The Egyptians believed that living in accordance with mat ensured a stable and prosperous society. This concept influenced their laws, their interactions, and even their afterlife beliefs. Looking at that, you can see that even before there were churches or whatever, people understood on a very fundamental level that there needed to be some sort of moral code in order to operate as a well society. That is just part of our evolution, right? We know how to survive. That's what we're made to do. We're all made to do is to survive. So it just became an understanding that there was going to need to be some code to operate under that would, you know, allow everyone to be well and happy. And this isn't just humans. This is just the survival of any species. So you can even look at the natural world. Of course, you know I'm going to. And animals and other parts of nature and how they work together for the greater whole naturally. Like even if a tree miles, miles away in another forest is suffering or, you know, needs help, then other trees through the mycelium underground will gather together the nutrients and send it to the trees that are suffering so that everyone can thrive. It's very communistic way of being for the trees, right? Seriously, like it's just an understanding, you know, beyond the human mind that we have to look out for each other in order for everyone to live well. And that it's important for everyone to live well. I mean, you look at bees and how they, their whole role in pollination, like they don't need to set rid of written rules. They don't need the threat of eternal damnation to know that their work benefits the hive and the planet as a whole, right? They just do it. It's like this innate sense. It's innate knowing. They work in harmony with their environment. It contributes to a balanced and equal ecosystem. Something that we could all benefit from returning to, right? But there's even wolves. Like in a wolf pack, each member, if you think about that has like their own role to play. And that's because in, within that species, they have a social structure and it's based on cooperation and mutual support that ensures their survival. It's not because one is better than the other. They just know that we have to work together in order to accomplish our goal. There's going to need to be a leader and we're going to need to support that leader. Now that leader doesn't take advantage and then like keep all the food for themselves and watch everybody starve. No, because that's not our nature. That's not our authentic essence of being, but they look out for each other. Like one thing I've noticed, it's so funny. I live in the jungle and there's a lot of ants. It doesn't matter what you do. There's going to be ants. The ants are just a way of life here. And I kind of keep them, you know, down of course, but they're still going to happen. And they love to get in to any kind of water they can find. So they'll get into the water reservoir of my Nespresso maker. And it's the craziest thing because you would think, I mean, sometimes it's even like two or three days before I use my Nespresso because I've decided to go another caffeinated route, you know, the mornings before. But I go in there and I look and the ants that have been floating in there for days are still alive, which is just crazy. It's like they come together and make a raft in the center of the water. And they take turns, like who's going to be on bottom and who's going to be on top. And they work together so that nobody drowns. Like that's crazy. That's crazy. Like, of course they do. But also like the innate intelligence involved in order for that to happen. But coming back to us, like as humans even go, there's like, this has been pondered on. This isn't a new idea, right? In philosophy, there's Immanuel Kant. I don't know if you guys have heard of him. I didn't until I started researching this. So no judgment here. But he argued that morality is based on rationality and autonomy. According to Kant, our ability to reason allows us to determine what is right and wrong, that there is no divine intervention needed. Just our own reasoning. He introduced this idea called categorical imperative, which is a universal moral law that applies to all rational beings. One of his famous formulations of this principle is act only according to that maxim whereby you can, at the same time, will that it should become a universal law. And break this down into layman's terms, it means that our actions should be guided by the principles that we believe everyone should follow, not just ourselves. I mean, that makes sense, right? In a fair and equitable society, we would all follow the same moral code, not just certain people over the others, as the case may be. So for one, to assume that humans need some kind of pressure or coercion or manipulation in order to be moral and to treat each other with basic decency, it just, it doesn't make sense. Because our nature depends on it. Our survival depends on it. In fact, as we'll further get into in this discussion, I mean, we'll see more and more how this idea of imposed morality actually takes us away from morality in itself. What they've shown in these studies is that moral development in children is heavily influenced by social actions, but not necessarily by religious teachings. So psychologist Lawrence Kohlberg developed a theory of moral development, and it outlines how individuals progress through different stages of moral reasoning. These stages aren't tied to the religious beliefs, but instead are based on cognitive development and social experiences. So there was a, they've done some recent case studies in the present. So they've done a lot of looks. I know you see, they're like the happiest countries in the world and all of that stuff. They happen to be the most secular societies that exist today. Like the Scandinavian countries, like Denmark, Sweden, Norway, these places often rank highest in the terms of happiness, social welfare, and low crime rates. They emphasize equality, community, and well-being over religious dogma. They're living proof that in a society, we can be moral and just without being religious. In fact, maybe even more so, right? So in Denmark, they have this concept of hanteloven. Hanteloven, I think is how you pronounce it. It's the law of hante, and this promotes humility, equality, and community. It's a cultural code that values collective well-being over individual success. This mindset is reflected in their social policies, which include universal healthcare, free education, and robust social safety nets. Again, outside of religion, this is all built outside of religion. This is just humans being moral. Now, if we look at this idea that organized religion has brought us morality, but then from looking at the world, we can see that it's actually perhaps hindered morality by using fear, manipulation, coercion. Many religious institutions have his... I'm going to stop that one. So, philosopher Jean-Jacques Rousseau believed that humans are inherently good, but are corrupted by society. He emphasized the importance of living in harmony with our natural instincts and reason. Rousseau argued that in the state of nature, humans were peaceful and content, but that the development of private property and social institutions led to inequality and moral corruption. Sounds familiar. Not only has religion separated us from our own morality, but it has operated often without morality. If you even think about the missionaries and the colonization of indigenous peoples, that's not moral to come and be like, we're better than you, so we're taking everything. We're going to murder 16 million indigenous people and call this our land and do it in the name of God and do it in the name of Christianity and develop this Christian nation. Y'all, we've been fighting this. This is not the first time we've fought this movement that's happening. It's not the first time we've won. Movement's trying to happen again. This Christian nationalism is scary. It's not moral. If that's what they're selling you, they're selling you a lie. They're selling you a lie. Punishing other people for being different than you is not morality. Forcing people to uphold your personal values is not morality. Especially when upon deep contemplation, I would invite you to consider that many of these values that you think are yours are actually not. When you really, really get in touch with yourselves, you can really understand what your true values are and what's actually important. You know, the things that I thought growing up in the church and being in that whole world, the things that I thought were important and that I adhere so strongly to and I really like devoted myself to, I am now seeing that so many of those things were not important at all and that not only were they not the way, but that they took me further from the way that was right for me, from my own aligned path. So, you know, giving this credit of morality to the church, it's really misguided. Like, not only has the church continuously throughout history caused war and famine and slavery and all of these other problems that we've faced as humanity over and over and over again, so many times initiated by religious movements. Like, we got to stop handing this stuff to the church. Actually, I'm going to take that back. We're not handing it to them. It was indoctrinated into us that it already belonged. The community belonged to the church, that God belonged to the church, that morality belongs to the church. Let's find out what else is in there, guys, because it doesn't. It belongs to us. It is our human birthright. It doesn't belong to the church and it is time to stop letting them take credit for it. I'm feeling a little passionate about this. I can feel it coming up in me because I see so much of what's happening and all the lies that are being told and how everybody's touting this, like, superior morality and really the things that they're proposing and that they're trying to impose on us as a society. It's quite the opposite. And I just beg that anyone who is not, who's listening to this and doesn't already see that, that you look closely, that you look closely and look again under this lens, under this lens of what our divine essence is, of what we are naturally, which is a society that cares for each other, that understands that if one person suffers, we all suffer. And that when we lift each other up, we lift ourselves, we lift everyone up. And that's how we work together as humans. And that's another thing. It's like, it's so much of what we, what has been outsourced to the church. It also like, again, is taking out the responsibility from us. It's empowering to be responsible for your own values. It's empowering to be responsible for your own morality, even though we've been set to believe that it's, it's the other way, but it is. It's empowering. It feels good to be responsible for yourself in those ways. I mean, realistically speaking, it's so bizarre to me that people automatically, like, it's really is indoctrination that we automatically associate morality with organized religion because our social proof of that, our historical proof of that is that organized religion has actually hindered morality in many ways, often by using fear, manipulation, coercion. Many religious institutions have historically used the threat of divine punishment to enforce moral behavior, right? If you don't do it, you're going to hell. And so many people keep saying that, like, well, if you're not worried about going to hell, why, how do we know you're going to be a good person? To which I have to say, if you, if the fear of going to hell is the only thing making you be a good person, I say in quotes, then I think that there's a lot more self-reflection to do there. Because again, this is something that is innate within us. And if we're not feeling that naturally, it's because there's something in between us and it. And my guess is going to be there's some indoctrination involved. Yes, that's what I said. Said what I said. So again, many religions, they use this threat of punishment to enforce their moral behavior, which doesn't mean that they're being moral. It means that they're putting on a facade of morality because morality is something that comes from within. If you don't feel it, it's not real to you. You're just going through the motions, right? So it's just like, if you're happy, you can act happy. You can laugh. You can smile. You can like do all the happy things. But if inside you feel like garbage, you're going to be that person that, you know, is an aliving themselves. And everybody's like, but they were so happy. I don't understand. They were so happy. I know that's a different scenario, but it's that same kind of thing. It's like pretending to be moral because of this coercion doesn't make one moral. In fact, it's likely the opposite because our nature is moral. So again, if we go into, you know, organized religion, this division that they cause, it's often this like us versus them mentality. I mean, look at our political landscape right now. This judgment of you're right. You're wrong. I'm right. You're bad. I'm good. It leads to this exclusion rather than connection and understanding, being able to see each other, see things from other people's perspective. Instead, it's like danger, danger. They're different. That scares me. Stay away. So instead of promoting this sense of unity throughout humanity, so many religions and religious teachings, especially now, they emphasize these differences and these separations. I'm going to say especially now, it's just that's the basis of it. That's what it is, right? This separation, it extends to our connection with the divine energy. So that's where we really get off. That's how we really get separated from our morals in this is because it's our essence. It's that divine energy that we have that makes us moral off the bat, right? We've got our survival part of it. But even outside of survival, we operate as a community by nature. And that's because of that divine essence that is in us. That's what divinity, you know, that's the essence of it. It's love, right? It's unconditional love. But religion often uses this to divide people, again, dividing us from each other, but also from ourselves. When being in ourselves is how we really find that compassion and empathy for each other. It's just this cycle. You can hear me even talking about it in a cycle. That's because it is. It's just this endless cycle. And it, you know, hindering people from developing their own spiritual connections and understanding their own inherent worth and their own moral capacity. When we make people believe that they don't have that, we separate them from it. So it's harder to access it, right? It's harder for people to access that moral capacity. So instead they have to default to the moral code set forth by their organized religion. They have to default to where I'm doing this because I don't want to go to hell or I'm doing this because I want God to like me or so that I make Jesus happy or whatever the reason is. But really internally, morally, like in that divinity, it's already there. They just can't access it because that's been cut off with this disembodiment enforced by the church with all the shame and separation and judgment. And I'm getting out of soapbox. So I'm going to move on. How can we develop this strong moral compass without religion? Well, for one, it's innate. Get rid of everything that's not it. And that's going to get you closer, right? That's always the answer for me. But it starts with education, you know, community, personal reflection, like we're doing right here together, friends. Engage in open conversations about ethics and values with people. Don't be afraid to talk about these things. You reflect on your own actions and how they're impacting other people. Foster empathy and compassion through community service and social involvement by exposing yourself to what other people are experiencing. You know, don't be Buddha on the mountaintop telling everybody what to do, but like get your hands dirty, get in there and see what other people are living through and put yourself in their position. And that really gives us a better understanding of how to contribute to the betterment of society instead of continuing to separate ourselves and separate our children and separate our families and separate our whole worlds into this. We're better than and good luck for you guys. Another practical approach that, you know, I talk about over and over again, it's mindfulness. It's this what I'm talking about, the self-awareness and mindfulness, just being regularly reflecting on your actions and their consequences. Through that, we can develop a deeper understanding of what our values actually are and how we want to live. Not because somebody else told us what our values are supposed to be. Not because somebody else has indoctrinated us into believing that this is the way that we want to live. No. When we connect to that, when we remember ourselves, we come back together, then it automatically is going to put us back in touch with this part that feels and understands the importance of working together as a community. So to wrap up, like I really hope that this all makes sense, that it's coming through. I've been getting lots of great feedback from you all. Thank you so much. I appreciate it. Keep it coming. If you haven't yet left a review, please do. It really makes a difference. It helps more people hear these conversations. It also helps me by, you know, increasing the viewership and getting this out there. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you. It helps me keep going. So just wrapping things up, I just want to just remind you that it's a human trait that we've cultivated through our own history, philosophy, psychology, and social interactions that we are moral. We can own our own morality. We can own that. It doesn't belong to anyone else but us. And knowing that, we can continue to explore and embrace this innate sense of right and wrong, independent of religious frameworks, and get back to what it is that connects us to each other. It makes us love each other. Stop looking for our differences in each other and start looking for our sameness. Start looking for ways that we can lift each other up and that we can look out for each other. Let's be the ants. Let's not let anybody drown, right? There's enough for everybody. Let's not let anybody drown. I, again, thank you all for being here. I appreciate you so much. I love that you're tuning in. We've got some really cool stuff coming the next few weeks. Next week we have an interview with a therapist who's going to talk to us about religious trauma and the Catholic church, which I'm very excited about. We have a few episodes coming up on the Catholic church as we come in and we're coming in towards, you know, the middle of our second half of this season. Thanks again for tuning in. I hope you're all enjoying your summer vacations. I've been trying to, like, space the episodes out a little bit. Give everybody time to do their summer breaks and all their summer things and I hope that you're enjoying it. I love you all. I love that you're here. I love doing this work and you all have a wonderful, amazing, amazing weekend. Thank you. Aloha. Stay authentic.