Leaving the Church to Find God
Leaving the Church to Find God delves into the shadows of organized religion, guiding you past indoctrination and towards authentic spirituality. Join solo reflections, insightful interviews, and a supportive community on this transformative journey beyond the pews.
Leaving the Church to Find God
Embracing Your Truth: Mike Maeshiro's Courageous Journey from Religious Conflict to LGBTQ+ Affirmation
Have you ever found yourself at a crossroads between the identity you were raised to believe in and the one that resonates with who you truly are? Mike Maeshiro knows that tension all too well, and in our latest episode, he invites us into his courageous journey of self-discovery and the reclamation of his faith. As a guiding light for the LGBTQ+ community and those healing from the wounds of religious toxicity, Mike's story is not just one of struggle, but of profound liberation and authenticity.
Navigating the waters of evangelical beliefs while embracing one's true self can be treacherous, but Mike has charted that course with grace. We discuss the emotional upheaval of leaving behind a community that feels like home, the complexity of family dynamics when worldviews clash, and the ultimate quest for self-acceptance. Mike's candid reflections offer solace and understanding for anyone facing the isolation that often accompanies such a transformative journey.
Our conversation culminates with a reminder that even in the face of loss, there's a community and a spiritual home for everyone. Mike shares his experiences with Grace Point Church in Nashville, where inclusivity isn't just preached—it's practiced. His role in fostering a safe space for all, especially within the online campus, echoes a powerful call to action for embracing one's identity with pride. Tune in and be inspired by the resilience and hope that shine through Mike’s story—a beacon for anyone seeking to align their truth with their life.
Find Mike and His work at www.mikemaeshiro.com
and on Instagram at @mikemaeshiro
If you would like to be a guest on this podcast or would like to support this work, visit www.leavingthechurchtofindgod.com where you can contact Melissa and or make a donation. Follow along my journey on IG at @authenticallymeli and find more in depth content on YouTube at Diary of an Authentic Life.
Aloha, god Pod. Today we're here with a very special guest, mike Maeshiro. He's the founder of NUMA, an organization that supports people recovering from religious toxicity. Mike is gay and an advocate for the LGBTQ plus community and a queer theology enthusiast. Mike is a former instructor at Bethel School of Supernatural Ministry, best known for his class Discerning of Spirits, and he now teaches on emotional health and redemptive deconstruction. He is a consultant and coach for gay men recovering from evangelicalism and he also has a team of coaches who work with people whose faith is evolving. He's a social media influencer and thought leader, and Mike loves Japanese food, movies, playing volleyball and has a depth of useless knowledge about the X-Men. So everyone welcome Mike as we explore what it means to be a gay man in the Christian church.
Speaker 2:Patience, yeah no worries, goodness patience.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no worries, goodness, yeah, um, so I'll um always add in the bio beforehand, because I've tried doing it in person and it just sounds like I'm reading like a robot. So I feel like it works best if I just add it when I'm in post, so that will happen. But okay all, thank you for being here today. Mike, can you pronounce your last name for me? I don't want to mess it up.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Maya Shiro.
Speaker 1:Maya Shiro. Oh, I definitely would have said that wrong, so thank you for that. So here on the podcast we like to just start with you're leaving the church story. I know that you're still a pastor, but you were in the evangelical church. So like when did things start to crack for you? How did this go?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so to just clarify, I have the title pastor as like a courtesy, I think, to just help the people who don't know who I am. Get like context for where I'm coming from and what kind of work I do. I don't vocationally hold a pastoral role anywhere officially anymore. I don't plan to ever do that again. I am on staff at a church here in Nashville, but not for pastoral work, anyway.
Speaker 2:Um, so I I left evangelicalism a few years ago and the reason I left was because I finally came out as gay, like I accepted myself as a gay man. Um, specifically because of what I understand about who God is and how God is, uh, I couldn't do it anymore. So that was a big upset for the church that I was a part of, that I was, you know, working with and very public at Uh, and I just wanted to give myself the opportunity to go on that journey and not have to constantly explain myself, defend myself, have opposition left and right, and so I walked away and then deconstructed pretty intensely and just continued to find more and more upsetting things about evangelical theology and doctrine that I couldn't be a part of anymore.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, yeah, okay, so it just kind of started with really just trying to be yourself and then, and then the other stuff came afterwards, right, is that what? Understanding, yeah, interesting, yeah, cause for a lot of people it starts to be like little little cracks in the doctrine. So it, um, you know, yeah, everybody has their their push of like what made it happen. So this is, um, I think, really important for a lot of people who feel demonized because of their sexuality or like. It's just like an impossible situation. So it's so brave to to leave for specifically for the purpose of being able to live authentically. What was that like for you?
Speaker 2:um, it was a lot. It was terrifying, um, mostly because you know you don't realize this until you, like step away usually. But being raised evangelical, you are groomed to be utterly dependent on that community and that worldview and the ecosystem that exists within that subculture. So to walk away was a huge risk because I didn't know who I was going to be on the other side, right, like my community and my support and the people group I identified with the most, you know who was I going to be on the other side of that? That was scary. And then also, vocationally, that was that was where I was, like doing my most important work in my life, right, and so I knew I was going to lose all of my speaking gigs for the rest of the year and any invitations thereafter, and the network and privilege and support that I enjoyed was all going to disappear. Um, I knew that. And then also, of course, just the cultural and social like backlash that was going to come of people just being really gross and toxic and bigoted, um, against the queer community I was going to. I was willingly choosing to identify with this marginalized group of people who have been dehumanized and, like oppressed my whole life. Um, and so it was like choosing to get into those chains with that group and be like attacked by the people I was with my whole life. So, um, it was scary, it was painful.
Speaker 2:Um, I did a lot of research and learned a lot and I grieved a lot, like the day I decided I was going to like finally embrace this who I was and move forward, authentically representing myself that way in the world. I knew like most of what I was aware of at that point was loss, like just what I was going to lose. Left and right, it just kept becoming more and more, like clearer and clearer, what all was going to not be in my life anymore, and I was so attached to so much of it. So it was really painful. It was a very intense grieving process. It was terrifying, and then it was also incredibly liberating and validating and, um, exhilarating, you know. So it was like a huge mixed bag of intense emotions on this pendulum swing of of feelings throughout the whole process. But, um, yeah, I was, so I'm so glad I did it. Um, I wouldn't want to go through it again, but, yeah, I'm really proud of that guy. I think he did a great job.
Speaker 1:Amazing. I love that. What kind of support did you find? Were you seeing like a therapist, or did you find a mentor? Were you just doing this all on your own? How did that work for you? I was not.
Speaker 2:I guess. I started on my own because I didn't know who to talk to, right Like everyone I knew was anti-gay at that point that I had any respect or who I was listening to. So I definitely had to go hunting for some other voices and input. No-transcript how much resources they had provided. So YouTube was a huge help. Podcasts were helpful.
Speaker 2:I ordered a bunch of books and started reading and then through all of that, thankfully because of the network I had and the platform I had, I got connected to a couple of people doing really important work on including the queer community within evangelical spaces. So that was a stepping stone that I needed and I found a few incredible people doing quality service in that regard and I got connected to them and they kind of pulled me in and like took me under their wings, if you will, or maybe like I shoved myself under their wings in some ways, but like they became mentors of mine. I didn't get a therapist until after I came out publicly and that was like a reaction to like I was not doing well, right, I think getting a therapist beforehand would have been wise, um, but I didn't. But in hindsight I'm also thinking like I wasn't necessarily looking for mental and emotional support I could have used it wasn't looking for it. I needed theological clarity and guidance and you know justification or substantiation for you know what I was trying to understand. So I found people like that and they were most of the people I reached out to and like pulled from, were very responsive and receptive and supportive, and are still in my life today and I'm so thankful for that.
Speaker 2:So the thing is I want to acknowledge as well, like in that process I was like oh, other people going through this won't get access to people like this. They're not going to find these people, they're not going to have the visibility you know to get in front of these people. Like, what is a normal quote unquote normal person supposed to do if they come out? This is a lot. You know I'm getting a lot of support and it's still really difficult and painful. What would a quote unquote average person going through this? How would they get through? You know, it was like dire.
Speaker 2:Just the amount of energy and time and money I was putting to, like getting the support I needed and having the opportunity you know, being self-employed to be able to do that. I was like man, there's, there are so many barriers. For someone who was raised in an environment like this who chooses to come out, it's all. I mean. There's not a ton of opportunity to like do that in a safe, functional way. And from my vantage point which is a big part of why I started doing the work that I do now I was like I got to pave a way, I got to punch a hole through. This is wild, but anyway. Yes, found mentors super helpful. Therapist came later.
Speaker 1:But that makes sense though, because I know I don't know about your experience, but from my experience, like going to a therapist or getting help with your mental health is not encouraged in the church. In fact, it's discouraged. It's like, no, you go to God and if God can't fix it, you're the problem. So it makes sense that you wouldn't default to there, but it's amazing that you were able to just like fall into the right places, and that's something I think it's important for people to know is that you don't have to know like what's next. You just got to step out and say this isn't it? I don't know what it is, but this isn't it, and trust that there is something waiting for you, and there is. There's always something there for you to catch you.
Speaker 2:Yes, Catherine, I love that you said that and I want to add something to what you just said. Yeah, I totally agree. It's terrifying. It doesn't sound like a sound plan. Right To do that no-transcript. Then move Right, you might.
Speaker 2:You might not know what's going to come or who or what, but, like you said, there are people, there are resources, there is support out there. There's a great big world that isn't that bigoted, evangelical, controlling, fearful. You know world, um, but I think the the resolve of just accepting that this isn't it and then choosing to step onto the unknown path actually will help temper and clarify what you're even aware of and your ability to recognize what will be helpful as you move forward. You've got to get nice and clear about that, because I work with a lot of people who it takes them a minute to even get there. They're not sure that their bigoted parents, that their like harmful, toxic evangelical community aren't it. They don't know that.
Speaker 2:They're like ah, but maybe you know they're still wrestling out Like, maybe I am a piece of, maybe I am an abomination, maybe I am not lovable, maybe there is something fundamentally flawed about me, maybe they're just ignorant and don't know any better. Maybe I should be helpful to them in their process. Maybe I need to cater to their comfort level. You know, as I negotiate with my own well-being and humanity, I'm like, oh, like we got to get nice and clear, this isn't it. You are not doing well here. We got to take care of you first, and that will help clarify answers moving forward.
Speaker 1:I think that's, yeah, really huge yeah, as children were you raised in the evangelical church? Yeah, yeah, that's the thing. It's like. They indoctrinate us at such a young age that we've been gaslighted for so long. We don't even know what gaslighting is, we can't trust ourselves and we can't trust our instincts, and that everything that has the answers is this, these people or this person outside of ourselves. So I can imagine, like how confusing and scary that must be. Is your family supportive?
Speaker 2:Everyone in my extended family are allies. They're supportive. My parents are not. They love me, but they're loving me despite my sin, which I find deplorable. So we are in an awkward phase of this journey and I don't know where it's going to go, but I know what I'm not willing to settle for anymore. So we're navigating that. I would not consider my parents supportive.
Speaker 1:I'm sorry that you're having to face that. I get it. It's so dehumanizing, it's heartbreaking. I saw somebody wrote something about it recently. It's just so heartbreaking that your family genuinely believes that they're like trying to save your soul and that you're like gonna go to hell. And also it's heartbreaking for you because you never feel seen and it's like I even me like not being gay, like just showing up with my family. It's just the fact that they're always trying to save me. They're always like just believing that I'm lost, when I'm very much not lost at all. It's very dehumanizing. So I can understand like how disappointing that must be. I remember growing up in the church there would be men who would come out or not even come out.
Speaker 1:They would get caught in gay acts with other gay acts you know I'm using church language other um men in the church and it was so like demonized and like this is so dirty and this is so filthy and like all of this. But I can't help but like look back on that and really empathize with what those men must have been going through and that they're living these lives with these families and really, really trying to do what they think they're supposed to do. But it's like such a self-betrayal and any kind of expression of self is going to be turned into this, like you're filthy or a sinner and there really is no place to go in the church that's safe, Like even if you do find someone else who's gay and there's, there's still like this living in secret, this betrayal of self. Can't, you can really can't be authentic to yourself, which is to me like the biggest shame of all you know.
Speaker 2:Seriously, I mean when you don't know what it's like to not live authentically right in a meaningful, fundamental part of your identity, if you've never had to compromise and hide and deny and question and disassociate from a fundamental part of yourself, it's difficult to understand how significant living authentically is to the human experience if you've only known that your whole life. Right Now I'm not saying straight people are all authentic, but they're authentic about like fundamental aspects of their humanity, right, not their unique, specific journeys, necessarily, but just who they are in the world and how society treats them and acknowledges them and provides protections and benefits. Like, if you don't know what that's like to not have that you I don't know if you appreciate the level of like, what authenticity means to being human, and so when it's been denied to you your whole life, it's really difficult to like flourish and thrive and be well without that for sure. So, yeah, it's, it's hard to like.
Speaker 2:I think it's difficult to get that across to people who don't know any better. We can say these things and you know, know what we mean when we say them, but for people who like, don't get it, it doesn't translate. You just like, watch them, be like okay, and they just push it aside like it wasn't important, and then we go back to something in the bible and you're like we're not having the same conversation yeah, yeah, exactly yeah, we're speaking a different language is what it feels like sometimes, for sure, yeah, and I feel like that's across across the board.
Speaker 1:Um, with just diversity in general, like the evangelical church has become so like um, no, I don't even know if it's become or if it's just become more in my awareness that it's this way. I feel like it's just built on this. You know bigotry, but it's just like only us, specific people, are available for salvation, or it's only available for us and anybody that diverges from that. You know it's a hard pass and it's so far. It's interesting.
Speaker 1:I remember being in the church and it feels so real. It's such a like true experience that you believe that you have the truth and that you're living. It was for me like I fully bought in, like I bought in 100%. So to like crack that shell is it takes something, it takes something big. I feel like and um, you have, you know your identity to to do that for you. And um, yeah, it's just I, yeah, I just try to wrap my mind around it. You know like how can they? But then also, I remember being they and and I get it too, it it's.
Speaker 1:I have empathy on both sides. You know because you're stuck, and there's something like what I've learned more than anything is that authenticity is everything Like being your authentic self, like we were put here. We chose to be here. In my opinion, we chose to be here to be who we are going to be in this life and you know the goal is to get back to that and then share it with the world. Right, and anything I just want to encourage anybody that's listening like authenticity is where it's at. You can see if you will have this video clips on YouTube. You can see like the lightness and that we both are expressing. That's not something you see a lot for people who are living in evangelicalism. So I just want to encourage people that you know this is a new experience. So you said that you're on staff at a church currently. Let's talk about that.
Speaker 2:Tell me about that. Yeah, so one of the people I was, you know, I mentioned like mentors that I found were doing incredible work, one of the people I found who I thought was one of the most brilliant people communicating about theology, not just on behalf of the queer community but especially us, but like in general, like confronting bigotry and bad doctrine and bad theology within evangelicalism and bad doctrine and bad theology within evangelicalism. This guy lives in Nashville and I got connected to him and I wept after I talked to him for the first time because I'd never sat across from a straight white cis man pastor who didn't need me, who, like, knew about me and didn't need me to be any different than I was. That was a surreal and he wasn't trying to put on any, it was like a non-issue for him. It didn't even like hardly registered in the conversation, like, and he had bad an eyelash and I had no idea that I'd never had that experience before and needed it so badly. It like hit me in such a significant place. Anyway, so he's been. I moved to Nashville to just get around him place. Anyway, so he's been. I moved to Nashville to just get around him, um, to just have him in my corner and like learn, cause I needed to, like get better at affirming myself and understanding all the things that are going into how I saw myself for so long, and so he was a big part of my healing process and he founded a church here in Nashville called Grace Point, um, and then a few years ago he stepped down as the head pastor and another guy came in that he brought and I became friends with that guy and so, anyway, through that journey of just being around them and going on my own process and all that, they needed somebody to help build out the online campus for the church. I do a lot of work in that space, so they pulled me in on staff to do that. So now I am the senior director of the online campus for Grace Point. I do a lot of work in that space, so they pulled me in on staff to do that, so now I am the senior director of the online campus for this point at the recording of this episode. Yeah, so I'm just kind of helping on the that side, like provide support.
Speaker 2:They're a progressive, deconstructed type church I don't know what the right way to say that is, but like when I was coming out, they were already pushing things theologically that I don't know what the right way to say that is, but, um, like, when I was coming out, they were already pushing things theologically that I wasn't even ready to ask or think about.
Speaker 2:Like they were, they were catalytic in helping me face a lot of my own bad theology, um, and advocate, not just for me but, you know, for people and for humanity. Um, so like they're a church, they're a Christian church, that's all true. They're unlike any church I've ever seen before and I'm really proud of who they are and I think that their work is really important, especially because of this evangelical problem that we're having. So, yeah, I still think that's important work that we need for a chunk of the population. I don't know if the solution in my mind is to just walk away and leave it to the worst of Christianity. You know, like I think we need to see some change and provide some steps, and you know bridge things.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Well, and I think that's important, that's, you know, for me what this podcast is about is that there isn't just like a right way and a wrong way, and so we're all finding our own ways that like feel authentic to us, and I feel like by sharing these stories, there'll be other people that hear that and be like, oh, that sounds familiar, I have that experience. Yeah, I just feel like I hope that this will bring freedom to people to maybe just kind of do their own exploration and to show that there's other options. So I don't have anything against a church. I think the name of the podcast can be deceiving because for me it's more of a metaphor, Like I did, of course, leave evangelicalism myself and have found a very authentic spiritual path for myself. But you know, the more I dig into this work you know I'll say over and over again on this podcast the more I dig into it, the more I realize that the church is the systems that we're all in, that our society has been built on and that many societies have been built on, and that as a society, as a nation, as a earth, like, we all need to like leave the church and find our version of what God is outside of that, outside of four walls and outside of indoctrination, you know. So, yeah, I love that there.
Speaker 1:I love that Grace Point exists. I love that that's there for people to deconstruct things. It is important, I think, for a lot of people. You're taught, you know, not to listen to anyone outside of the church, that they're of the world, you're of God and they're of the world, and so when there's a bridge and there's people who are still of God, you know that can provide this like path of deconstruction for people. I can't, you know that's extremely important. I think it's amazing, especially in the location that you're at. I'm from Georgia, so I live in Hawaii now, but I'm from the South, so I get it, the Bible Belt and all that. You know it's really important.
Speaker 2:Wow, yeah thanks.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, thank you, and I've been following you on social media. I really appreciate your post. I feel like I'm always learning something about the experience, especially of gay men who are in this, and growing up with some myself who were in the church, and it just really. I just think it's good to understand other people's experiences and I feel like you share that really well your own experience as well as other people's experiences in a way that just really puts it out there is, this is, this is what it feels like. You can, you can say what you want, but this is what we feel like. You know, and people can choose if they want to be concerned about other people's feelings or not, but you're putting it out there in a way that's very clear and affirming for other people. So can you talk to me more about your work that you're doing?
Speaker 2:yeah, thank you for saying that. Um, yeah, when I came out publicly a couple years ago, I made the decision I was going to come out swinging. Um, I didn't want to just find my freedom and authenticity and move on. I wanted to change this, the way this goes for people, in whatever way that I was able to. I wanted to punch a hole through this coming out pipeline of deeply closeted queer people raised in evangelical spaces. I wanted to provide like massive arrows pointing in directions and like big warning signs get out of here, don't do you know, this place is toxic, it's hazardous, don't touch it.
Speaker 2:I just like provide some guidance and support and direction, like I found and it was difficult, like I had to hunt right, I hadn't, it wasn't readily available where to go and who to listen to and what they're. You know who is safe to listen to, and there are a lot of really bad people out there talking about queer people within the church and they have really toxic things to say. So it's a it's a minefield for someone who doesn't know any better. Trying to figure out who's saying what, who's what, what they're saying is going to be helpful, like it's a lot. So now I do, obviously a lot of social media, like I have a gay man's experience and mostly just like the queer community in general, trying to educate, open people's eyes, disrupt.
Speaker 2:You know all that and then beyond that, on the others, like a step deeper into my work, I am a consultant and coach for people like, specifically, queer people coming out of evangelicalism. There's so many pitfalls and like tricks and loops and blind spots that are I don't say blind spots, holes in awareness, um, that are difficult to become conscious of and then overcome. So I do a lot of work in that regard. I have several groups that I facilitate, facilitate for like intentional discussion and community building. And then I'm writing a memoir that I'm releasing in an episodic format on Substack, specifically just telling my story of being a human being, a gay kid, being raised in the 90s and evangelicalism and then going on my spiritual journey and you know, like this spiritual experiences I had, that challenged theology I was being raised in, that eventually would lead me out of the closet, like it's that story. So that's like probably a good synopsis of I have a podcast, a YouTube channel. You know like I do those things. So, yeah, that's the work that I'm doing.
Speaker 1:Love it and for anybody who's listening, I'm going to link all of that stuff in the description. So when you want to find Mike, it'll all be there for you to find. Yeah, absolutely. I see that a lot of people you know bring their bigotry to your feed and I love that. You just screenshot and share it. You know? No, like you shame me, here you go. This is what it feels like, but how does that feel for you? Does that still like trigger, like wounds for you, or is it at this point just like? Eh, you know?
Speaker 2:Yeah, for the most part. At this point it's like, eh yeah, it doesn't hit me on an emotional level, because when I first came out I've been told from several people you know what to expect and what to prepare for and whatever and I like understood in some way like what they meant. Like intellectually, I was like I get it. But then on a human level, like going through that experience, like no one can prepare you for what that feels like, you know, especially if you have like a platform where a lot of people are like coming at you saying things. You know, it was a lot and that's part of why I got a therapist. I mean, I had to like reevaluate how I was living my life at that point because I needed to change some things. I was waking up in the morning not excited to get out of bed. I didn't really have anything to look forward to in the day. Sorry, I wasn't looking forward to anything that I had going in my life, you know. And then going to bed I was like not looking forward to waking up, like, oh, this is not, oh, this is not. I remember what this feels like. It's been a long time, this is not a good place. So therapists, walks in the park, specific conversations with friends, writing. I just had, like all these, the gym I got a gym and I just did all these things that I wasn't regularly doing to counteract what was happening. And sorry, the reason this is coming up is because one of the things that I found to be the most productive, maybe alchemizing, of the hate that was coming at me was let's pause that I found. Blocking people, deleting comments, restricting, hiding, reporting, whatever, like that stuff did not calm my nervous system. That stuff didn't address the problem. It didn't make me feel any better. I still felt harassed or threatened, even if I blocked somebody, like it was still bothering me, right, and so I didn't know what the solution was going to be until I started like doing what you just described.
Speaker 2:I started screenshotting stuff and making it public and instead of trying to wrestle through or like argue with or reason with these crazy people, I instead started using their crazy as teaching tools for my audience so I could just educate people, not the crazies, but use the crazy behavior to help showcase this happens. People say this and I was doing it a lot to show like it's not just one person, it's not just a couple of times. This happens regularly. This is what continues to come up. It's the same 13 things that are tired and ridiculous and unfounded and they just keep coming. And there's, just like then, creative license with the different kinds of types of people who would say the same stuff in their own way.
Speaker 2:So I started doing that, chiefly as a way to advocate for myself and find some sense of like, closure and peace on my processing what was happening. I just needed to like put it somewhere definitively and blocking it, blocking people, deleting comments wasn't doing it, so I stopped doing that. Ultimately, like I don't block people very often anymore. I don't delete comments anymore, really, but I do grab. I screen grab sometimes when I feel like that's like it's a helpful. So first priority for that was just like to take care of me. I had to find a functional way, because otherwise the alternative was I just would quit. I just stopped posting stuff right and run away. I'm like I don't want to abandon this space that I've been working in for so long just because these people are jerks. I'm not giving this up. So what does it look like then to move forward, knowing this stuff's going to happen? So I started turning this manure into, like you know, fertilizer to grow things. That was my first party.
Speaker 2:The secondary motive for that was like to educate people, to show queer people hey, you can, can come out, have this stuff, come at you and here's, so you can handle it. Here's the stuff to defang and detoxify what they're saying. It's not true, it's not founded. This is ridiculous. It's not based on anything substantial, right, just like defanging the beast publicly, so that anybody who is still closeted and terrified of their evangelical community could at least, in their own reasoning, their own theology, their own worldview, potentially start reframing what this stuff actually means to them and how they're impacted by it. And then, thirdly, just to educate whoever's watching.
Speaker 2:Let's look at this scourge of evangelicalism that is continuing to rear its ugly head. This is a problem. This is toxic and gross and harmful. Are we seeing this? It's not one person, it's not a hundred people, it's like a lot of people like, are we seeing this Right? Um, so yeah, those all became motivators for why I do that. And I still do it, because, um, yeah, it's like a functional way to stay in that space and not. And then, ever since that practice just became normalized for me, the stuff hardly ever hits me on an emotional level and I often laugh. Sometimes I just like laugh. I'm like hardly ever hits me on an emotional level, I often laugh. Sometimes I just like laugh. I'm like that's what you said, really, it's just like it's hilarious.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's really cathartic. I can see that. I remember learning in therapy like that shame and guilt are, they live in the subconscious as a result of trauma, right, and then when we start bringing light to that trauma, the shame and the guilt will start rising to the surface and then we can, you know, process what that is and in the church, like you're still living in that shame and guilt like sort of paradigm.
Speaker 1:I guess it's just like that's your world. It's like shame and guilt is everything, and I think that by just owning it and putting it out there, like it's kind of like reflecting the shame back at them. It's like if you're wanting to give out shame, I'll show you that this is what it looks like, this is what you look, without even saying anything. You can just like this is, this is what you're posting, man, this is what you're posting, and I think that that's really powerful. It's, you know, instead of trying to fight back, it's just like look, look, you know, look at what this is and yeah, and it is alchemy that's. I love that you say that, because I feel like that's been. The most powerful thing is just taking those things that feel so ugly and so painful and turning them into something beautiful, whether that's art, whether it's writing about it, whether it's speaking about it For so long.
Speaker 1:I left the church in the early 2000s and moved to Hawaii, so in my mind it was just like I had completely intellectualized all of it. It was like that's no longer my life, I don't need to bother moving along, and the more I get into like trauma work and really just unpacking, I realized, oh, I moved away from the church but it was still living in my brain, like you know, all of those associations had just been turned over to something else, whether it was one self-help book or some other remedy that was outside of myself and I realized, okay, this is the way that my brain's working, but for me it's like I didn't want to be the poster child of like leaving the church, like that just wasn't. I was just like no, I don't want anything to do with that. I don't want my name to be on the church. I've been, you know, the church girl my whole life and all of this identity, and I just have found that like avoiding isn't going to help it either, but like just owning it and being like, yeah, I did that, that was a part of my life.
Speaker 1:I did actually give a presentation in high school about the importance of abstinence and how quickly STDs can spread. Yeah, I was that girl and and it's that's the thing it's like owning the shame of it, like the guilt and the shame. It's like they will own you if you don't own them. So, just making it public, I feel like it's so beautiful and, um, important, important for people to be able to heal.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thanks yeah, yeah, I agree, there's like you said, there's the guilt, and the shame is often somewhere you can't see and but it is impacting you, it is dictating things and I think being able to say the things out loud, kind of put it on display, helps disarm some of that and give permission. And yeah, it's like it's a unique, interesting lane that I find myself in. I didn't I don't know that I were like intended on ending up here, you know, but it's been the way that has been the most like life-giving and productive for my own journey and all this stuff.
Speaker 1:So thanks, yeah I can see that.
Speaker 2:I can see that and I um love that it didn't take you 20 years to get there, like it did me you know, I was in the closet, I didn't come out, so I was 32, so it took me a long time and then, once I came out, it like that transition was fast, but yeah, I was like holding back and hiding and compromising for a long time what?
Speaker 1:how did you know that you were gay?
Speaker 2:so I was 10 when I consciously realized, oh, we have a term in our culture for someone like me, the thing that's different about me I'm gay, oh god right. Like I was 10 when I consciously realized that. But I was like five, four, five, six ish when I knew I wasn't like other boys. Like I was too into Ariel, you know, and watching X-Men. Like I was obsessed with the female strong characters, like I wanted to be them. I didn't want to be the guys, I wanted to be the girls with the hair and the flying and the you know the figure.
Speaker 2:I don't know, I don't really. I don't remember exactly why all that mattered to me, but it did. And I was just very aware the boys around me all had kind of a like unified vibe and impulse and direction and drive that I did not identify with. And then the things that I was compelled by the other boys like would mock me for if I let them know that I felt that way. And then, you know, like girls were interested in things that I cared about. I was way more emotionally like in tune and sensitive to that relational dynamics and anyway. So at that age you just start recognizing socially, like there are lines that I'm crossing and there are spaces that boys like me are supposed to occupy, or like want to be in, that I just don't care about, like when McDonald's would give out like Barbies and Hot Wheels.
Speaker 2:I didn't want the Hot Wheels. I wanted the Barbies, right, like, and that's not. That wasn't, quote unquote, normal in the nineties when I was a boy, so those were indications like something's different about me, right. And then, like, when I started getting closer to puberty, it was when it started becoming a lot more clarified, right.
Speaker 1:Did um? Did I answer the question? Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I love it um. Were there other people in your church who felt like you? Like, or do you not know, or was?
Speaker 2:um, there were um, but we were kids, right, so we never we didn't know how to talk about that Um, and so I always had like suspicion, right With my gaydar, just looking at like I would. The weird thing is like I would judge other gay kids for being gay and project onto them the thing I was terrified of, which is so awful to like knowledge, right, why we see people behaving the way they do now, like I was doing that as a kid. Like it's so weird.
Speaker 2:One of the ways I think we, as human beings, process our own self-hatred is by like lashing out at people who are exhibiting the things that we hate about ourselves, right, or who are like so I would judge other gay kids or people that I assumed were gay. So I think there were other gay kids around me, but I distanced myself from them. I wasn't drawn to them. I didn't want to be friends with them. I like kept my distance because I didn't want to go down with them. You know like which. Again, like I hate having to admit that, but as a kid, like you're just doing what you can to survive, right, you're just trying to like find your way through this terrifying experience. Um, so I think there were other gay kids around me, but we didn't ever. It wasn't helpful, we didn't talk about it, you know, like it wasn't something we could acknowledge or process through together, like that didn't happen, yeah, yeah yeah, I've seen it play it out in different ways, so I'm just curious, like if that would create more shame.
Speaker 1:But yeah, I see what you're saying with the projecting part of it too, I think I think there's also like um in that projecting it. It is like a self-hatred and I think it's also like a jealousy in ways. It's like, especially for people who are out. It's like you're living in this way that I don't give myself permission to, so you can't be successful. I won't allow you to be successful at that, because it just shows that I could be successful at that if I were brave enough, and I'm not brave enough, so instead you can't do it. That seems to be, I mean, from my observation. I feel like that's a lot of it.
Speaker 2:Yeah that that makes sense. Yeah, I mean, you're putting some poignant, poignant language to that. That makes me uncomfortable.
Speaker 1:I'm sorry.
Speaker 1:I'm uncomfortable because you're right, that's so true and awful.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, I feel like, with everything, a diversity in general, that seems to be a lot.
Speaker 1:I mean even just like I've noticed that even just as a woman, like in business, I've been an entrepreneur in many ways and just other women who were in position to like grant permits or whatever were like no, no, no, you can't be a woman like doing this thing, you got to go down. And so I don't think it's just just with gayness, I think it's with anything that like people who aren't living authentically when they see someone else living an expression of what would be authentic for them, it's yeah, it's that in a lot of ways it's, yeah, it's that in a lot of ways, it's that, um, their own inability to live that authenticity, which is why it's so important for us to be ourselves. So, as, um, a gay man, leave it who has the church, what would you say to anyone who's questioning their sexuality or, like Phil's, tempted to go down this road but afraid to like? What kind of advice would you give for somebody in the very beginning stages of this?
Speaker 2:Man? Great question I would. My first thing I would say is, like to that gay kid I don't care how old you are, I'm talking to the gay kid inside of you or on behalf of the gay kid inside of you who deserves for you to take seriously what I'm about to say and I've said this in other interviews before. Um, because it just to me it feels like so important. I wish I would have known this. It took me a couple years to find the language to say this, but you are not going to get the years back that you are spending lying to yourself, pretending not to be who. You are hoping that the bigots and the right-wing conservative fundamental wackos are right, like they're not paying the vitality. It's going to cost you for you to continue to waffle in that uncertainty and fear and paralysis, like I know it's scary. I know it's going to cost you for you to continue to waffle in that uncertainty and fear and paralysis, like I know it's scary. I know it's traumatizing. I know there's a huge cost to this. I get it right, I get it.
Speaker 2:But you are sacrificing years of your existence, of your journey, of your ability to be yourself, to build authentic relationships, to get down the road of because, like, some of this stuff takes time. You don't just like find people right away. You've got to explore and experience people and like build right and it takes time to vet character and like compatibility. So I'm talking friendships, I'm talking significant others, like that's going to take time and guess what, the longer you wait, the later you're going to be starting and then that changes the demographic you're engaging with right, like when you get to like have your second puberty and actually start actually dating for the first time ever. That's a journey. There is a whole world of processing and experience you're going to have to go through to even get to a place where you feel quote unquote normal behaving in that process. So I'm like the time to come out was yesterday.
Speaker 2:I don't want to push you or pressure you to do something you're not ready to do, but listen to me when I say this get yourself there, figure out what you need to do and get ready Like do the thing, read the book, go to the conference, talk to the person, follow that account. Like comment, share. I don't care. Like whatever baby steps and bigger steps you need to take to just like face and get closer to the beast and discover if you're going to die or not. Like, accelerate that process and get there. For your sake. I don't need you to come out, but I wish there were people who could say the things I'm saying now and I could hear them, because some of what I'm saying is logical, is rational, right right, has a bite of wisdom from experience with it, and I want you to get bitten so you can be motivated to do some uncomfortable things that are absolutely going to cost you for your own sake, for the sake of that queer kid inside of you who deserved this advocacy a long time ago, like specifically from you.
Speaker 1:And I'm not mad at you.
Speaker 2:I'm not judging you for not doing that right. I didn't come out until I was 32. So I'm not throwing stones, I'm not judging. I didn't come out until I was 32. So I'm not throwing stones, I'm not judging. I wished that little kid in me had someone in his life who he could listen to and feel safe with, who was saying stuff like this, so he could have gotten there sooner.
Speaker 2:You're not going to lose God. You might, you might not. It's not a guarantee. You will probably lose your church community if you're in the evangelical world, you probably will. But let me just say this as well there are other people in the world who love, who will love you, who will see you for who you are and will build relationship and community with you. The people in your evangelical space who will judge you and distance themselves from you and see you differently immediately and you'll all of a sudden become the other and unsafe. Do you want to sacrifice, like your wellbeing and years of your significant experience for that? They will drop you in a heartbeat and it's so sad to have to say that out loud and not all of them, but most of them will, because the basis of your relationship with them is predicated on agreeing around certain ways of thinking about the world, and those ways of thinking about the world do not include you.
Speaker 2:You don't get to exist in that world, and I get up and scream about that. It's crazy. So please recognize that you are living in an environment that is poisonous to your humanity. It is not okay for you to continue to stay there when you know better, and so, if you're hearing me say this right now, consider this some level of accountability that hopefully notches you a little bit forward in your willingness to like, own your identity and your experience. You deserve to come out. You deserve to be free.
Speaker 2:What coming out looks like for you, I don't care. One person, three people at least. To yourself, the whole planet doesn't matter. Just whatever degree of like, show of courage and solidarity with yourself you must demonstrate in order to actually like experience that liberation in yourself. Do that, get there. And there are so many resources and so many things available in the world my Instagram account alone. Just go watch and read and whatever for a long time and I will indoctrinate you to eventually decide that your humanity is worth fighting for and theology and doctrine are not more important than your well-being or your existence. It's worth it. Find your way there. There's so many more things I would say, but we got to get there. Like you just got to start moving out of the toxicity and toward something better. What that looks like, where you end up, that's your call. You get to decide that. But no one's going to do this for you, like nobody can. So please find the resolve, the conviction, find the grit, move your ass, all right very well put.
Speaker 1:I'm very well put. Yeah, and it's worth it. I just want to like reiterate that it's worth it. It's worth it, it's worth it. It's worth it because the any approval or relationship that you're gaining by not being yourself, it's authentic. You're not getting the benefit of community if the community is based around you being someone that you're not.
Speaker 2:Right, totally, and it's preventing you from getting to know yourself. It's keeping you from your own authentic experience, and that is a travesty that sucks. There's so much about me I didn't get to experience for so long. Because of what we're talking about. It's not worth it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it, yeah well, and I want to add that from my experience that, um, I mean I believe we're all on the spectrum. I would say call myself cis, but I think we're all on the spectrum. I mean, nothing is binary in my opinion, you know, um, yeah, but I from like, I love being in the queer community. I love being around queer people because there is a freedom there, there is an authenticity there, there's so much love there and what we're told in the church is that it's ugly, it's filthy like that, there's demons and you're going to get possessed and it's contagious and all of this bullshit, absolute bullshit.
Speaker 1:But I can say my experience of the gay community is quite the opposite. It's very loving, it's a lot of fun. I always feel like I could be most myself around queer people because they're just owning their own authenticity in a way that is, for me, very fearless and it creates space for me to be even more of myself. So if what you're thinking like is this picture of what's been painted, of what being queer is or what the gay community is like, I would um beg you to to check out mike's feed for one. But just like start like putting it out there and checking out more people who are living openly gay and understand that that's not what it is at all.
Speaker 2:Yeah, when you think about the picture you're looking at, when you think of the queer community, consider the artist, the painter who painted that picture. Are they even qualified to tell you about a whole people group that they're not a part of that? They don't understand that. They refuse to understand, like who you listen to, like so yeah, we could. We could go on and on, and on and on.
Speaker 1:I'm gonna get off the train, but yeah no, it's true, and yeah, we can go into history and realize that so much of what people enjoy is. You know, it all comes from queerness and, like all of the great artists and inventors and everything that people are reaping the benefits of, it's the same. You know, diversity is where it's at people. If you look around and all the people you're around are just like you, please find yourself in another room right move yeah find yourself in another room for sure awesome.
Speaker 1:So I want um to to leave us like, if you can leave us with anything, the whole group listening. What do you want to leave us with? Okay, it's broad.
Speaker 2:It's broad. Let me think, okay, if I could leave you with anything. Oh, okay, I'm going to say this to everyone listening. So, including queer people, but including straights, right, like, I think to be human is to desire the authentic, right To be authentic and to be around the authentic, to be a part of, connected to receiving from authenticity, like we crave and long for that. So I don't care if you're gay or straight or whatever, even long for that, so I don't care if you're gay or straight or whatever.
Speaker 2:Authenticity is significantly a part of your well-being, a part of your ability to be happy, you know, to experience joy, like. If you're going to, like enjoy your life and the things that you're a part of and that you're doing, authenticity is a necessary ingredient for that possibility. So, whoever you are, wherever you are, whatever's going on, if there are parts of your life where you're living inauthentically whether it's a relationship or a job or career path or choice or a location or a living situation I don't care. Whatever like can go any, whatever part of your life if there's inauthenticity there, let me ask you like, what are you waiting for? Like, why are you doing that? And I understand we have reasons, right, you could easily answer me. Some of you wouldn't want to because you don't want to say it out loud, because you're embarrassed. You know the reason you're holding on to the inauthentic thing in your life is not a good reason, but you're scared, right, and so I'm going to stay in that situation, that relationship. I'm going to stay in that situation, that relationship, that job, that position, that place, because I'm afraid of the alternative. But let me just point out staying there isn't making you happy, does not, does your happiness not register as valuable? I think that we, you know like we should be enjoying this experience like this is the life you've got.
Speaker 2:So if there is an authentic inauthenticity in your life, in whatever form, wherever it is, let me say to you like, do the work get uncomfortable. Like, move toward that and face the possibility that it's time to let that thing go, to move on from that thing. And I know it's scary, some of you won't even hear what I'm saying, cause, yeah, that's great, I love that you're saying that. Go say that to other people. I'm like no, I'm saying it to you. Like, consider, like, what if you let that go? What if you move toward that thing? Um, worth it.
Speaker 2:You know, like I've had a couple of significant periods of my life where I did what I'm describing here on a significant scale in my life right, like made some huge changes and like had huge costs to huge risk, and I'm thankful in hindsight like those risks hugely paid off they had their challenges and setbacks in themselves, right, but also like I got to become more of myself each time I did it and I'm so thankful, um, and I hope I have the guts to do it again and again and again, as often as is necessary to continue to live an authentic life.
Speaker 2:I'm the happiest I've ever been. I'm also like experiencing some of the most intense pain I've ever experienced in my life, but I think that kind of goes with the territory and so many of us, I think, mitigate or like reduce the amount of pain we're capable of experiencing by compromising, and then you know, like welcome or settle in an inauthentic experience, and so then we also cut out possibility for happiness, for fulfillment, for joy as well, and I'm like, listen, I'd rather take the pain with the fulfillment than be numb and comfortably inauthentic. That to me sounds like hell that sucks. So, however, whatever you got to do, move toward your actual self. Find that person and be them.
Speaker 1:That's it. I love it, perfect, awesome. Thank you so much. Oh, I do want to add to that we were saying about the pain. The church teaches us that when you're in pain or things are difficult, that it's because you're going the wrong direction, and I would encourage people to push through that, because everything comes with its own. There's a black and white side to everything and, as much joy, there's going to be pain along the way. It doesn't mean that you're going the wrong direction. Keep going.
Speaker 2:Keep pushing. Oh yes, that's so good. Totally, I enjoyed this conversation so much thank you for having me.
Speaker 1:This is awesome. Thank you and um yeah until next time.
